Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT/SPACEDIG/V16_9/V16NO992.TXT

Text File | 1993-08-13 | 32KB | 826 lines

Space Digest                Fri,  6 Aug 93       Volume 16 : Issue 992

Today's Topics:
                              11 planets
                                 DC-X
      DC-X Prophets and associated problems (historical errors)
                      engine failures and safety
   Fractional Millikans (was Re: Cold Fusion and its possible uses)
               Ghost Wheels & HenrySpancer_Zoo (2 msgs)
                    Happy Birthday, NASA (2 msgs)
                        Hubble repair mission
                Looking for Info on the RH32 Processor
              NASA's planned project management changes
                             nearby stars
                         Simple Space Plane!
                        Space Combat Simulator
           Spock Sherzer pontificates (Re: Cost of Shuttle)
                 The Inquisition (The Usenet edition)
                           Titan IV Failure
                       to: [ HenrySpancer_Zoo ]
                     Why I hate the space shuttle

    Welcome to the Space Digest!!  Please send your messages to
    "[e-mail]", and (un)subscription requests of the form
    "Subscribe Space <your name>" to one of these addresses: listserv@uga
    (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle
    (THENET), or [e-mail] (Internet).
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 02:06:36 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: 11 planets
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alan Jenn) writes:
>Has anyone considered the notion that perhaps
>the asteroid belt that lies between Mars and Jupiter
>might actually be the remains of the so called eleventh
>planet...

Just thought I'd mention a little tidbit from icelandic legend...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 00:54:09 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: DC-X
Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space

[e-mail] (Pat) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Coffman) writes:
>>The poverty line today has been raised higher than my middle
>>class income of 1966. The most insidious kind of poverty is
>>when the government debases the currency so it can "give" you
>>a hand up.


>Well, in this case,  most of it wasn't  direct currency debasement,
>but inflation.  much of it driven by high energy prices in the
>70's  and real estate speculation int he 80's.

The high energy prices are gone and were to a large extent
driven by some of the government's energy policies. The
real estate speculation out here can't be used as an excuse
because that market burst due to the near collapse of
the domestic energy business...

>pat
>--
>I don't care if it's true.  If it sounds good, I will
>publish it.  Frank Bates Publisher  Frank Magazine.

Gee. Maybe I just found myself a job as a writer.
--
+-----------------------+"And so it went. Tens of thousands of messages,
|"Standard disclaimer"  |hundreds of points of view. It was not called
|[e-mail] |the Net of a Million Lies for nothing."
+-----------------------+-- Vernor Vinge, _A Fire Upon the Deep_
"Sure, I meet a lot of people in this job, but most of the time
I'm asking, 'did you hear the shots?'" -- Edna Buchanan

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1993 03:14:19 GMT
From: Eric Shafto <[e-mail]>
Subject: DC-X Prophets and associated problems (historical errors)
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] wrote:
: Someone else probably got it by now, but:


: Air ships were not all that bad. The Hindenberg flew on H2 because
: the US was worried about the Nazi's and would not sell them He.

I believe it had nothing to do with the Nazis.  It was my
understanding that the Germans were not allowed access to H2 as part
of the Treaty of Versailles, which ended WWI.

I think I recall hearing that the Hindenberg was quite a propaganda
coup for the Nazis, though.  One of their claims was that the treaty
placed an unfair burden on Germany, and should be abrogated.


--
*Eric Shafto             * The excursion is the same when you go looking  *
*Institute for the       * for your sorrow as when you go looking for     *
*    Learning Sciences   * your joy.                                      *
*Northwestern University *                Eudora Welty, The Wide Net      *

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 02:53:14 GMT
From: Henry Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: engine failures and safety
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <23sasq$[e-mail]> [e-mail] (George William Herbert) writes:
>Henry's just being a curmdugeon.  8-)  While it's possible for
>a single engine failure to cause an airliner to crash, it
>nearly never happens...

I'll admit to having been a bit grumpy when I posted that... :-)

Note, though, a more general point:  when an airliner loses *all* its
engines, it better get at least one of them relit, or it's going to
crash unless the gods are really smiling.  When you're out over the
Pacific at night and run into a Pinatubo ash cloud, the engines are
at least as important as the wings -- without engines, wings just
postpone the inevitable briefly.

Sure, in particularly favorable conditions -- nearby long hard-surface
runway, pilot who flies gliders as a hobby -- an airliner can survive
an unpowered landing.  And in particularly unfavorable conditions, even
having two or three surviving engines won't help enough.  But in the
average situation, one engine out is okay and all engines out is lethal,
wings or no wings.
--
Altruism is a fine motive, but if you   | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
want results, greed works much better.  |  [e-mail]  utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 01:01:50 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fractional Millikans (was Re: Cold Fusion and its possible uses)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.space

[e-mail] (Paul Callahan) writes:

>Even ten years worth of data isn't going to be very enlightening if
>the noise drowns out the signal.  I agree that it may be useful to
>hold onto such data for various educational purposes.  However, I
>would think that careful professionals could obtain a more reliable
>set of data in a month than thousands of bored undergrads could obtain
>in the course of ten years.

Or that a couple of careful professionals could devise an improved
apparatus that would have less noise.

>Quick!  Get me my colored pencils!  I'm having a paradigm shift.
>======= Paul Callahan ======= [e-mail] =======

I've _got_ to send that one to Nick Szabo... he's read altogether
too much Thomas Kuhn for his own good.
--
+-----------------------+"And so it went. Tens of thousands of messages,
|"Standard disclaimer"  |hundreds of points of view. It was not called
|[e-mail] |the Net of a Million Lies for nothing."
+-----------------------+-- Vernor Vinge, _A Fire Upon the Deep_
"Sure, I meet a lot of people in this job, but most of the time
I'm asking, 'did you hear the shots?'" -- Edna Buchanan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 01:44:26 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ghost Wheels & HenrySpancer_Zoo
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] (S.H.) writes:

>Really ?

>What else are you going to Kill ?

A "kill file" is simply a file with names or subject headings that
the posessor has deceided to stop reading postings from. Much of
the news software out there is capable of filtering out messages from
such people.

They're not going to really kill you or anything.

>Socrates was killed too.

>I still read about him.

I like Socrates. Please keep in mind, though, that Socrates
was not so much killed as given the choice of committing suicide
or leaving the city he loved and admitting to "crimes" he was not
guilty of. At the time of his death he was in his seventies, and
had seen much happen; he had fought in wars for Athens. He had
seen one of his best friends, Kreon, become a tyrant (although
the usual Greek meaning of the word does not apply to him) and
lost his friendship. During his life, Athenian society had undergone
a lot of turmoil, and he simply deceided to stay faithful to
Athens until the end rather than abandon her like a coward for
the remaining year or so of his life, even though most of Athens
had turned on him.

What do you think about Diogenes?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 01:56:45 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ghost Wheels & HenrySpancer_Zoo
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] (Dillon Pyron) writes:


>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (S.H.) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bruce Hoult) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>Welcome to the kill file.
>>
>>Really ?
>>
>>What else are you going to Kill ?
>>
>>Socrates was killed too.
>>
>>I still read about him.

>Socrates also gave careful thought before he wrote.  Maybe if you spent more
>than ten minutes reading this group before you posted, you'd get a little more
>respect.

Unfortunately, all that remain seem to be the writings of Plato,
which seem to bear as much relation to Socrates' beliefs as
Michael Kinsley's writings bear to Eric Hoffer's beliefs.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 01:41:12 GMT
From: Dave Michelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Happy Birthday, NASA
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.math

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phil G. Fraering) writes:
>
>In Greek myth there is but one Apollo. He is sometimes associated with
>Helios, god of the Sun. In _Chinese_ myth there is a legend of multiple
>suns. All but one were destroyed.

Correct.  Because all those extra suns made the earth unbearably hot,
one fellow decided to shoot all but one of them down.  Since this made
life bearable, he was given several rewards including a potion that would
make him immortal.  He was to drink the potion after brewing it for a
month but when the time came, his wife accidently drunk the potion instead.
She became the moon goddess and the Chinese pay tribute to her every fall
during the eighth month of the Chinese lunar calendar...

--
Dave Michelson  --  [e-mail]  --  University of British Columbia

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 01:11:18 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Happy Birthday, NASA
Newsgroups: sci.math,sci.space

BTW, I set the reply back to the newsgroup _I'm_ reading. I'll send
it to yours too but you have to keep reponses where I can see them
unless you just want to insult me.

[e-mail] (S.H.) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phil G. Fraering) writes:
>>[e-mail] (S.H.) writes:


>>>I see. You are a part-time physics student.
>>>What do  you do the rest part of your time ?????
>>
>>Work for the family business, which is in severe trouble which
>>has been affecting my studies for the worse. I'll probably just
>>go away for a while, come back when I have money _saved_.


>    Which `family' ?

My Mom and Dad. You were possibly hoping for a different
sort of family?

...
>>At the moment I'm just peeking in, seeing if DC-X has flown yet, and
>>what people have to say about it now.

>What does *Space* has to do with your family business ?

Our business is currently involved in the design and construction
of oilfield inspection equipment.

>What is DC-X  ?

Sci.space has a frequently answered questions list. I'm too tired
to type in the section on DC-X.

>What does that DC-X  has to do with you ?

Hopefully if the DC-X flights are successful there will be a follow-on
project or projects with the capacity to greatly lower the cost of
launching material into space and thereby revitalizing the U.S. space
program, which employs an inordinate amount of physicists. Were I not
in physics or DC-X not relevant to physics, I would still be greatly
interested and hope for its success.

>How about other space missions ?

I have not benefitted from other space missions nor have I been
involved. Even if I never do, I hope that they continue.

>>Since the nets were started as an academic excercise, there are a lot
>>of students here. If you want to use that as an excuse to knock their
>>ideas (especially if you don't have legitimate criticisms) feel free
>>to, but you'll be in my kill file if you do.

>I see. Students were used to `treat' another students!
>Something new! to add on.


>>>Are you sure you did not have anybody behind you ?????????
>>What do you mean?

>Why didn't  you  answer " yes or no" ?

Because I am unsure of your meaning. Perhaps this is due to my
poor language skills: a significant part of the population here
in Louisiana can lapse into non-Indo-European grammars; perhaps
I am handicapped by some non-Indo-European ancestors.

Whatever the reason, we are having problems communicating.
"Someone behind you" could mean that I am posting for someone
else. I am not.

>>>How much did you get paid from you *other* job ?

>>Currently, until someone buys one of the camera systems (next
>>week or month, knock on wood), I'm getting ~ $ 50.00 a week.
>>After we get a camera sold, I'm due a lot of back pay. Somewhere
>>around $3500 simply for the camera stuff alone.


>I see, your job is to sale cameras. I thought you were `photographer'
>or scientist!

My job is to help design the optics and ancillary equipment for
a system that uses a commercially available television camera
to inspect the insides of equipment with. Do you know what a
boroscope is? Our long-term goal is to have projects capable of
replacing the boroscope.

>So how much do you know about cameras ?

Not much. I've only worked on housings to make the cameras capable
of withstanding the enviornment that the customer is going to
put it in (dirty and with lots of sharp edges).

>What does a " montage " mean ?

As far as I know, it's a photograph which is an assembly of different
pictures or "photographs" or images.

>Where was the word coming from ?

Where _did_ the word come from, you mean? It seems to be of
French origin. I have a dictionary in the other room...

Hmmph. It says: [ < F < monter to mount]

>Here is a challenge for you. Can you design a camera, an ordernary
>camera, (which has to be portable and light weighted) to do montage
>by just click a button Once only ?

On one piece of film? Offhand, I'd probably try to use different
prisms mounted in front of the lens, so that one frame of film
would have on it images from different directions. I can't
draw a picture well in this medium.

>>>Below is yours. What was your message trying to sale ???
[...]
>>Here, I'm saying that the volume of information on the net is
>>subject to Gresham's Law: bad information is driving out good.

>Really ?????   What are the bad informations? Is yours good or bad ?

I suppose that mine are a mixture of good and bad, just like
everyone else'.

>>>>"Sure, I meet a lot of people in this job, but most of the time
>>>>I'm asking, 'did you hear the shots?'" -- Edna Buchanan
>                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Here I'm just putting in something I thought was humorous. Edna
>>Buchanan is a reporter and columnist for the Miami Herald who also
>>writes some good fiction and non-fiction books. I'm also trying
>>to (via this quote) find other people who have read her books so
>>we can discuss them.

>Interesting. An camera saleman believes ears.
>I better he would be saying things differently when he sale cameras.

I don't sell cameras. That's Bobby Chasserie's job. And I find
it difficult to believe in ears due to the fact that I have
partial hearing loss due to a series of infections I had when
I was very very young.

>How many of them who are in the net, sci.math,sci.space,sci.physics,
>sci.sci.sci.sci__  are salesman??? At least part_time.

>####### Statistics please!  Right  now!!!!  ##########

I wish I knew. I suppose to some extent everyone here is a salesman.
Somehow they convinced their current boss to hire them, their current
source of research funding to give them money...


>   Hay, I thought you sale cameras. You don't know what I mean?
>   Do I need to do a demon ?

As a physics student I also know that even deaf people can hear
vibrations. And I *don't* know what "Do I need to do a demon ?"
means.

>    I *saw* the pictures. I took the *shots*!

Okay! Now I understand. To you "shot" == "photograph" in some
sense. In another you may be talking about how violence was done
to you in the past and was covered up.

You've got to be chinese. No other language except English has
so much ambiguity...

>_S.H.|

Phil

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  5 Aug 93 18:45:25 PDT
From: Brian Stuart Thorn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Hubble repair mission
Newsgroups: sci.space

You may want to pick up the current issue of Smithsonian's "Air and
Space" magazine. There is a very good article, not too-technical,
about space rendezvous.

But basically, it takes two days to rendezvous using the least
amount of fuel necessary, meaning the rendezvous will be slow,
but Endeavour will have more fuel leftover for contingencies
once its accomplished. Also, the slower approach reduces the
risk of Endeavour's engine plumes damaging Hubble.

I don't know why the spacewalks won't begin until the following
day, but two good guesses would be:
A) The actual RMS grappling of Hubble will take place at the
   end of the busy rendezvous day, or,
B) After rendezvous, Mission Control will be busy readying Hubble
   for the repairs (folding the solar panels, for instance).

-Brian

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 93 20:45:46 GMT
From: "Ian B. Shef" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Looking for Info on the RH32 Processor
Newsgroups: comp.arch,sci.space

In article <23ouak$[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chia-Chi Chao) writes:
>I would like to get some info on the RH32 processor announced by
>TRW and McDonnell Douglas in 1991 or 1992.  It is supposed to be
>a radiation-hard, fault-tolerant, MIPS R3000-compatible chipset.
>If you know the sources for public documents on this project
>(press release, brochure, articles, etc.), please let me know.
>Thanks.
>--
Here are a couple of sources for information and further contacts:

Mark D. George, TRW RH32 Program Manager
One Space Park M5-2456
Redondo Beach, CA 90278
310-812-8076
FAX [phone]
email: [e-mail]

Clinton Ung, TRW RH32 Marketing Representative
310-813-5156
==============================================================================
--
Ian Shef  262/C58             [e-mail] or [e-mail]
Hughes Missile Systems Co.    uucp: ...!usc!hacgate!ipld01!shef (maybe?)
P.O. Box 7928                 phone: [phone]
Canoga Park, CA 91309-7928    Any opinions expressed are author's own.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 02:03:03 GMT
From: "Allen W. Sherzer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: NASA's planned project management changes
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:

>   Why does government procuremnt NEED to be different from accepted industry
>   practice?

>Different purpose,

Government launches a communications satellite, private companies
launch communication satellites.

>different scale.

Both use the same launcher. The only difference is the government pays
tens of millions more for the exact same service.

Same purpose, same scale.

    Allen

--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
+----------------------16 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1993 04:28:37 GMT
From: Scott Bryant <[e-mail]>
Subject: nearby stars
Newsgroups: sci.space

I'm looking for a list of nearby stars include NAMES.  I have the catalogue
of stars within 25 parsecs of the sun from the ames site.  However, this
list has positions and Gliese's catalog number but not the star names (for
those that have names).  If anyone can direct me to an electronic source
that cross references Gliese number and names OR positions and names it
will save me a lot of visual cross-referencing and typing.

Thanks

 -Scott

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1993 01:38:52 GMT
From: George William Herbert <[e-mail]>
Subject: Simple Space Plane!
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Okay wierd idea time again:
>Ideas for a space plane, or atleast how to power it..
>Useing Kerosene (I think this will work, nicely if it does since Kerosense is
>relatively inexpensive), build a jet, that can handle reentry, as the jet
>climbs to finally exit the atmosphere, you use a oxygen bottle (or soem other
>oxygen source, liquid oxygen(?), to oxygenate the kerosene (fuel, or what ever
>fuel it is)..

Physics and engineering kill this idea.

delta V = g * Isp * ln (Mr)

 delta V required to reach orbit ~= 9500 m/s (7800m/s orbital velocity plus
 various losses due to gravity during the burn time, aerodynamic drag, etc).

 Isp (sea level) of Kerosene/Oxygen is 280ish
 Isp (vaccum) can be as high as 320ish
 Isp of a jet engine is something like 2,000 for an afterburning engine
 You can burn air outside until you hit about Mach 8, then have to shift
    to internal oxygen.  So... (mach 8 is 8 * 331 m/s or about 2700 m/s)

2700 = 9.8 * 2000 * ln (Mr1)

9500 - 2700 = 9.8 * 310(average) * ln (Mr2)

Mr(overall) = Mr1 * Mr2

I work through these numbers and get...

Mr1 = 1.15 (not bad, you only burn about 1/7 of your start mass to get here)
Mr2 = 9.38 (this is pretty bad)

Mr(overall) = 10.78
1/Mr(overall) = 0.0927

This means that your plane has to fit it's tanks, wings, motors,
oxygen tanks, and payload into 9.27 percent of its initial mass.
Jet engines only produce about 8 times as much thrust as their
own mass, and since you need about 0.5 of your weight in thrust
in a plane to accellerate like this, if not more like 1.0,
you're talking about too much engine mass to let this happen at all.

Not to mention that you'll have to have a turboramjet engine or it
will have to convert over to rocket mode earlier in flight,
or seperate jet and ramjet motors (even heavier).


-george william herbert
Retro Aerospace

------------------------------

Date: 5 Aug 93 19:40:53 CDT
From: Sean Ahern <[e-mail]>
Subject: Space Combat Simulator
Newsgroups: sci.space

>From [e-mail] (Joel M. Ward)

        We (meaning me and a few other and hopefully YOU soon :) are in the
process of writing a Space Combat Simulator.  This will be a multi-platform,
multi-user simulation, using three-dimensional graphics.  You will be able
to play from an X term or at home on a PC with a modem, at first (at the
same time no less!)
        Right now we are in two phases of discussion:
What "model" of space travel to actually simulate.
Discussions about low level programming.

Even if you are not a programmer, we would like your input.  We need more
people to participate in discussions we are having about possible engine
types, possible weapon types, Hull structure, etc, etc, etc...
        This is a very open ended discussion since we want the most flexible
game possible.  I want you to be able to design you own ship from scratch,
No Limits.  (or pick from a list of previous designs, or even stuff in
between)
        In order for us to do this, we need people who can help us out
ideawise and technicallywise.  For instance, our discussions about Hull
structure always sort of trail off unresolved becasue none of us really
know anything about real life structures.  And ditto for many other things,
hence we need you or anyone you know who is interested!

        If you would like to get in on the early stages of the Game of the
Century, subscribe to our mailing list [e-mail] by dropping a
note to [e-mail]!  You can also get more information by fingering
one of my accounts at [e-mail] for more information about our
ftp site, but right now the mailing list is where the action is.  Subscribe!
get all your friends to too!

        I hope i have stimulated lots of interest in this new project.
We are going to make it ultra portable so it will be available for Windows,
OS/2, Macs, Amigas, and god-know-what-else as long as it has graphics!
Also any workstation that uses X or SGI.
(we also are shooting for 1200 or 2400 as the worst modem you can use)

--
     ++Joel;

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 05:39:23 BST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Spock Sherzer pontificates (Re: Cost of Shuttle)

Spock Sherzer pontificates (Re: Cost of Shuttle)> No Dennis, they do
not. GM wrote off Saturn cost only as a very last
> resort. Nobody (even GM) can last long throwing away billions the
> way you think they do.
>

I'll add to that. A writeoff is not a standard thing to do. It is an
admission of failure. For example, the large banks have been busily
writing off the bad debt on third world loans. They are strengthening
themselves financially for the long run by taking the "hit" for their
failed loan policies over a couple of years when they can handle it,
rather than wait and pay the piper at an inopportune (and possibly
bank closing) time. The same is true when a company writes off R&D on
a product. It means that the R&D was, well, a WRITE OFF. You blew it,
so you take the hit on your current value and try to recover as
quickly as possible.

Note that sometimes the act of taking a writeoff on a bad investment
will cause a stock price to go up, because the investment community
perceives the management has recognized a problem and will be
stronger in the long run.

While I am not a dump-the-shuttle today advocate, the logic of the
above tends to support Alan. When you do a writeoff on something, you
don't continue doing the same thing...
--
=======================================================================
Give generously to the        Dale M. Amon, Libertarian Anarchist
Betty Ford Home for                    [e-mail]
the Politically Correct     Greybook:  [e-mail]
=======================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 02:01:53 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: The Inquisition (The Usenet edition)
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] (Ward Paul) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (S.H.) writes:
>>
>>What is your backgroud?
>>Who do you speak for ?
>>
>>What do you do besides writing posters ?

>Gee, no one told me the inquisition had started again.

Same here. I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1993 01:14:45 GMT
From: George William Herbert <[e-mail]>
Subject: Titan IV Failure
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Henry Spencer) writes:
>Nobody in the US uses anything but solar arrays (or batteries) unless
>they must.  The paperwork is just too formidable to use isotope generators
>unnecessarily.

...not to mention little technical details like solar cell arrays
getting more watts per (lb/kg/favoritemassunit) and per dollar
than RTGs.  Only reactors show higher pwr/mass ratios than solar,
and reactors are a whole different kettle of fish than isotope
generators.

RTGs only have any advantage when solar plus batteries isn't a
viable option, as for deep-space missions past Mars where the solar
flux is a whole lot lower.

-george william herbert
Retro Aerospace

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 01:40:54 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: to: [ HenrySpancer_Zoo ]
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] (S.H.) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Henry Spencer) writes:

>>--
>>Altruism is a fine motive, but if you   | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
>>want results, greed works much better.  |  [e-mail]  utzoo!henry
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   what messages do you try to sale ?

>  What is your background ?
>  What does  Zoology has to do with space ?

What does it matter? Henry Spencer is a computer scientist who
works a lot with the University of Toronto Zoology department.
This department has to a large extent been an innovator in the
field of applying computer science to Zoology.

>  What do you do besides writing posters ?

Other than above, he is the only person here who has really
written a "poster." He is responsible (in collaboration) for
some of the software that makes this discussion possible.
(I.e. network news software).

------------------------------

Date: 6 Aug 1993 01:07:38 GMT
From: George William Herbert <[e-mail]>
Subject: Why I hate the space shuttle
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] (Steinn Sigurdsson) writes:
>That sounds like the one that flew into the Pinatubo plume?
>There was at least one 747 on a trans-Pacific flight that lost
>three engines when it ran into the plume and made it out
>with one restart.

One 747 that hit the Pinatubo plume lost all four engines for some
time (got them lit at 9,000 ft or something, after gliding down
from 40,000).  Numerous 747s have had engine failures (my father
was in one that had it's #3 engine's hot section blow up shortly
after takeoff, it was exciting and he has some neat photos of the
plane circling and dumping fuel...).  I've seen a few cases where

engines fell off cleanly.

I can think of two large planes that crashed as a result of a
single engine failure&seperation: the 747 in Europe and the
DC-10 which had a motor fall off in (Detroit? Chicago?).
I can think of numerous other examples where failures, including
multiple or total failures, were survived.  Like the DC-10
which had all three engines oil pump seals incorrectly
installed and limped back into Miami with one smoking engine
and two dead engines (incorrectly reported earlier in this
thread as a 747).

Henry's just being a curmdugeon.  8-)  While it's possible for
a single engine failure to cause an airliner to crash, it
nearly never happens.  Airliners lose engines in flight
on a daily basis.  I'll settle for launch vehicles that
have equivalent redundancy.

-george william herbert
Retro Aerospace

------------------------------

End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 992
------------------------------